34 replies to this topic

[paul05149]

My mkIII is now 15 years old and as far as ford as a company is concerned I don't think they have as much interest in the running (or otherwise!) of my car as much as I do, what I mean is, as the years/miles have clocked up on this car they have taken their toll, ie it ain't gonna win any 0-60 races and it was never gonna get 50+ mpg, so the fact that I can/have removed an internal engine component (one known to fail and destroy a perfectly good car) without, to my layman senses, any negative results then I am satisfied and the car can go on and survive a lot longer.

Yes your right ford ain't gonna be putting parts in for fun, they gotta earn their keep, but when the car gets to be 10-15 years old and it is 'not supported' shall we say by its manufacturer then the end user has got to make choices/compromises with regards to the work done/money spent on keeping the product operational with information gleaned from other users in the same boat!

Paul m.

Edited by paul05149, 13 January 2016 - 11:30 PM.

[badmonkey]

I have to say, no offence, I hate that term no effect whatsoever.

Should be writing no noticeable effect whatsoever instead.

Only way you are going to know no effect whatsoever is with flow and engine cell dyno testing with and without... Something ford have probably done already which is why they installed the flaps in first place because it solved something they perceived as a problem and nobody is qualified other than ford to conclusively say the engine is better off without them... Was designed with them, ford don't spend money designing, developing and testing things which are useless to an engine... It's too expensive... And makes engine more expensive to make also which doesn't fit in with fords money saving.

Yes people post that engine runs fine without them and anybody who wants to run without them also up to them... But nobody other than ford it's designers and testers are qualified to make the judgement that the engine is better without them.

 

Well said. I have waited til inspecting my flaps before commenting on this issue.

 

I agree things are put there for a reason. The flaps apparently assist low rpm air flow, aid spark, and do something for emissions and/or low end power.

 

I already noticed, with the vacuum hose to the flaps actuator disconnected, that the engine gives a worrying kick when applying power from idle. That's to say, from an idle-cruise, the engine jolts when the accelerator is touched. Feels a bit like a gear change. I have seen one other mention of this symptom on this forum. It's drivable but would annoy me and I wonder if it's doing harm. I assume this is something to do with the different air flow.

 

Then there are the other less obvious issues: fuel economy, are the plugs and leads being stressed (in which case avoiding the cost of replacing flaps might be a false economy), etc.

 

So, in my case, it turns out the flaps have been replaced at some point by the previous owner, and I estimate that they have done about 100,000 km. There is wear but I would say they're a ways from failure. Since the rod is re-usable, replacing the flaps at a cost of about 35 GBP is acceptable to maintain as-designed engine performance.

 

I will rotate the rod which will give me until-next-time life, at which point it will presumably be worn out. This is the most annoying part of this problem in my view, the 3.5 mm square steel being used is clearly far too soft. I had a brief look at stainless stock online but the closest I can find is 4 mm square bar, and then it's still just 304 or 316 which again will be too soft. With more effort it may be possible to find some harder duplex grade in the right size, that's a project for next time.

 

Now if the entire manifold needed replacing, because of the need for a new rod or other damage, the cost might make it a silly proposition on a 15 yr old Mondy, vis-a-vis going flapless and accepting the out-of-design air flow, so Paul definitely has a point there.

[badmonkey]

Looking more closely at the way the rod works, it is supported by cylindrical bushings between intakes 1-2 and 3-4. Noticeably there is not one between 2-3. Parts #10 in this diagram:

 

 

Photo of the bushing part:

 

When I put my rod through the existing bushings, there is a little movement allowed by them. I assume it is more than design, and that this is actually the root cause of the problem.

 

So long as the bushings are doing all the bearing work, there shouldn't be any wear on the flaps. The rod goes through a plastic inner bearing, which should be something like an oil impregnated nylon and rotates in a cylindrical metal outer shell. But apparently they are inadequate, and my conclusion is that it is them responsible for the whole problem - not the flap assemblies at all. Once the bushings wear, only then do the plastic ends of the flaps start to wear against the holes in the flap retainers, resulting in the wear and failures in that area that we all see.

 

The bad news - the part (F 1317278) is GBP 28 each from the supplier - there are two required and ideally a third would be used between intakes 2-3 ! This sort of pricing is just off planet ridiculous and a new manifold would make more financial sense. (Actually a new car would make more sense...)

Edited by badmonkey, 15 January 2016 - 04:30 AM.

[badmonkey]

For those who are interested, there is a nice write-up with photos that this forum's members might not otherwise come across, done by a Ruskie - here is the Google Translate link:

https://translate.go...230376153161054

 

I am interested in Duratec HEs used in other cars like the Focus Mk2. Where apparently there are not the same flap failures occurring? Does anyone know the differences between the Focus manifold and the Mondeo's, can they be adapted for use in the Mondy?

[badmonkey]

Here are my bushings, pictured on the rod.

 

 

[RB2004]

Is it possible to fit an extra bushing in the middle? Suspect that doesn't help the problem because the centre flap isn't supported.

[siruncle]

regardless, i'd have binned them and fixed it, at the great cost of a single tube of araldite.

they can't be a critical part, as the focus with the same engine has no flaps, if you look at the newer mondeo engines in the mk4, and the current ones, there are no flaps again... They must have been a really good idea.

[RB2004]

Haven't seen a focus one or new mondeo one but thought they did have some flaps In them for inlet manifold runner control, and that they was dual tract manifold.

[badmonkey]

regardless, i'd have binned them and fixed it, at the great cost of a single tube of araldite.

they can't be a critical part, as the focus with the same engine has no flaps, if you look at the newer mondeo engines in the mk4, and the current ones, there are no flaps again... They must have been a really good idea.

 

That's not correct, the Duratec 2.0 Focuses have flaps, see here

http://www.focusfana...mble-flaps.html

 

In fact I thought they were using a computer controlled throttle but in some of this guy's photos his manifold looks identical to the Mondeo's, with mounts for IACV and everything else the same. E.g. (ignore the paint job):

 

In that thread they are pointing out that the ECU needs a tune after de-flapping, which is probably what causes the jerking off idle-cruise problem after a de-flap for the Mondy. I am more interested though in seeing if a Focus manifold, or at least its flap hardware, could be adapted in a straight switch. Part of the incentive is cheaper US sourcing of parts. Need input from someone with experience with both Mk3 Mondy and Mk2 Focus.

[Jim1978]

I have a focus 2.0 duratec he. Can I help at all