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Aircon Hesitation

air con air conditioning hesitation bad idle bad revs

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#1 windy7

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:40 PM

hi

ive posted before about air con hesitation but I have more questions and updates about it:

I have a noticeable engine hesitation and revs kicking in and out I presume due to the compressor kicking in n out.
I believe on other cars ive driven don't have this noticeable hesitation compared to mine so I presume its at fault somewhere.
I know it does sap power but has any of you with a st24 notice a up in power drain, or is it just a little?

It interfears with idle costing as in traffic trying to accelerate smoothly, but when the compressor kicks off the car lurches forward on throttle due to the throttle controlling so I have to lift off so slightly to re adjust.

Ive actually replaced the compressor with a smoother operating one from my last one which had the clutch plate all bent and grindy which I thought would off made it rum bad but after replacing its still there.

Ive replacerd the coolant in it with the diy kit from Halfords which after a few youtube and forums research I managed to get a cold temp and the compressor kicks in and out maybe around 4=5times a minute.

ive cleaned my idle control valve and replaced the manifold vac pipes at the back that connect to the egr evr and fuel vac pipes (multi coloured pipes at back of manifold.

Ive read the dumb guide of air con and does not help in my situation.

Can anyone help me out?

Cheers

#2 RB2004

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:44 PM

Don't use DIY kits from halfords, they are more trouble than they are worth.. Also due to a technicality you have broken the law by using it.. It's only legal to buy, not to use.

It's hard to know what your problem is because it should be checked out during a service normally.

You had paid almost as much as a professional cost by buying DIY can anyway.

Other problem wih then is the guage isn't accurate, it might say charged in summer but come winter say undercharged... If charged in summer, if charged in winter it can be reverse: say charges in winter and over charged in summer because of the way pressure relates to temperature.

#3 windy7

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:28 AM

ok well i dont believe it is against the law otherwise why would it be sold from a reputable company? i need answers specifically to my problem, do you reckens part of the annoyance of it kicking in n out is because i have not filled it enough? and also why is it sapping more power than usual?
thanx :)

#4 RB2004

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:51 AM

It is against the law, it's a massive loophole.

They sell it because they themselves aren't breaking the law.. There's no law which says you can't sell or buy it... Which is why halfords exploit that loophole.


But what you do with it is the customers business not their concern.. So if you break the law connecting it, it's not their problem it's yours.

"Beware DIY Air Con Top Up Kits
Industry sources have reacted with concern to the news that Halfords is selling canisters of refrigerant direct to the public. The company sees an attractive market opportunity with the DIY kits offering a much cheaper alternative to the average garage service at anywhere between £80 - £200. Some kits claim to repair small leaks with the inclusion of a sealant in the mix, on the 'Radweld' principle. The Air Conditioning and Refrigeration Industry Board is taking the issue up directly with Halfords stressing the obvious environmental and safety implications and that they could be contravening the Environmental Protection Act. They stated, work on car ac systems should only be carried out by people trained in the handling of refrigerants. The move by Halfords serves to underline the need for a mandatory resistration scheme for refrigerant handling. Taken from RAC Magazine Nov 2005"

http://www.ariazone....ioning_news.asp

"It is currently illegal to recover and charge refrigerant in any motor vehicle air-conditioning system unless a person meets the current F-Gas requirements. This also includes vehicle scrap yard workers.
From July 2010 new legislation requires that all personnel recovering or using refrigerant must possess the new qualification or be liable to prosecution. City and Guilds 7543 now covers the new requirements and is currently a lifetime qualification."

http://www.kooltrain.co.uk/


I do this work for a living so know the law, and halfords have been confronted several times about the sale of these products. But nobody can stop them because its not illegal to buy and not illegal to sell... Just illegal to connect to the car.

Problem also is the safety factor, this stuff r134a is capable of causing frostbite and blindness if it gets into the eye, you also can't do a vacuum without the equipment which is crucial for the future reliability of the system.. As the moisture can react with the refrigerant and oil to cause an acid.. It also freezes inside reducing performance.

Also without the equipment you can't leak test. So gassing with a leak is definitely breaking the environmental laws should somebody have a leak.

I'm not telling you off or shouting, just making people aware of the problems with these things.

Also 1 can alone is not sufficient to fill a mondeo from empty.

Yes in answer to your question, it does sap some power, but not enough to be noticeable while driving normally. Only time it's noticeable is on Tickover through change in revs and slightly increased fuel consumption... But in terms of actually noticing while driving this isn't normal.it could indicate a slightly seized compressor through lack of oil, undercharged system or oercharged system all of which make compressor work harder.

Under or overcharging can also cause your symptoms with compressor cutting in and out, some compressors it's normal, but on ones which it's not it can idicate under or overcharging.

Edited by RB2004, 08 May 2013 - 08:53 AM.


#5 cozmium

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:59 PM

RB2004, you're slightly incorrect on a couple of things i'm afraid.

First the data from the page you linked is all but 7 years old, and outdated. No law or regulation was ever introduced, and I think if there was a problem then 7 years would give authorities plenty of time to deal with them.

Secondly, your stated July 2010 requirement to gain the C&G 7543 is for assessors and tutors, and also a requirement for those who intend to provide customer services - NOT for personal/private use.

I realise you're obviously only trying to look out for people's interests, but there is nothing illegal about using the recharge canisters. Many legal things can cause frostbite/blindness - you could discharge a fire extinquisher incorrectly and blind yourself, doesn't mean we all need a certificate for them. It's perfectly legal to buy liquid nitrogen and even helium - far more potentially hazardous than r134. The point of the C&G was because there was no previous regulation for the servicing of AC in the UK, and the government likes to give people more pointless hoops to jump through.

Edit: Oh, and it is not breaking environmental laws either, that was the whole point of switching to r134 from R-12 back in the 90s.

Edited by cozmium, 08 May 2013 - 07:01 PM.


#6 RB2004

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:43 PM

Yes I am trying to look out for people's interests in terms of safety and system damage.

If I'm wrong I accept that and apologise for providing incorrect information,

But it doesn't change that r134a pressure changes with temperature. So a pressure at a lower temperature will be different to a pressure at a higher temperature.

Those gauges don't take that into consideration:

So in a low temperature environment it will say properly charged, then as soon as the temperature changes maybe 20 degrees the pressure will show as high.

If done in reverse, gassed in hot, and checked again in cold it will show undercharged.

But that aside, it costs almost as much to buy a can of that stuff as it does to get it professionally done and leak tested.

The cans are incredibly expensive, a car like a vectra b takes around 900g of refrigerant, that's 2 cans, costing £80 after refund of surcharge... For around 1.4kg... In the trade we but 13.6kg for only 20-30 more! Around 10x more for the same price as 2 cans !

R134a is a greenhouse gas despite being non ozone depleting so environmental laws still apply, that's why there's a new refrigerant HFO1234yf which is supposed so he the solution.



#7 cozmium

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 12:10 AM

Upon re-reading myself, I think I should also apologise if I came across a bit sharp, I was reminded of the infuriating time my old devil-spawned landlady decided it was illegal for me to change a lightswitch since she thought her couple of years spent studying for whatever edition wiring regulation gave her more knowhow than most of my life with electronics :rolleyes:

In any case I agree with you completely - the cans are an absolute ripoff. When I was living in Sheffield i found a place doing a full leak test and charge for £35, was a no-brainer. I will say though - I have used one once because I literally only needed a topup and it worked a charm. The guage does measure bar as well, but I wouldn't want to count on it for an accurate measurment.

Anyway, before this gets more offtopic, I think it's likely you'll notice the hesitation of it turning on and off, than if it was on all the time say, but I don't know what the ST24 is like with it - personally I would have thought it to be much less noticable than the l4 which itself it just a noticable power loss. I'd suggest having it properly tested/charged (assuming it is not leaking) and then go from there.

#8 windy7

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 07:59 AM

that was a good heated debate! lol ok i a thinking of taking it to the garage to take a look. the compresser is working fine and is kicking out cold air so may qell be under or over dont know will let ya no soon the outcome. cheers guys

#9 chrisniknikki

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 09:24 PM

remember u can break any rule u like don't get caught doing it lol lol



#10 chrisniknikki

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 09:26 PM

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but more seriously those cans from Halfords are waste of money only proper way to recharge ac system is evacuate it pressure test it if ok vacuum it then recharge with correct amount of gas


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